In it for the long run PROFILE The Stage 22/01/2004 MARK SHENTON Jon Thoday's singular take on promotions and determined attitude has made Avalon a giant among comedy agents. An approach, Mark Shenton discovers, he is taking to the commercial theatre Without writers, there would be nothing to put on. Without actors, there would be no one to perform what they had written. But without producers, there is no one to put their combined efforts together or employ the rest of the collaborators that make a show happen. The buck stops here Ð right where the bucks begin. So surely it is a cause for celebration when someone new arrives, ready to chance an arm to put on a show in the choppy commercial waters of the West End. Down that route goes Avalon, led by its tenacious, determined producer Jon Thoday, the man who built an empire out of comedy promotion in the mid to late-eighties at a time when no such integrated operation existed. But its arrival in theatreland, kick-started by the transfer of Jerry Springer Ð the Opera from the National to the Cambridge Theatre, has caused wariness, consternation and even hostility. "I'm amazed at the desire among some in the West End to knock us, " says Thoday. We are in his spacious offices in Ladbroke Grove, which, a long way from Shaftesbury Avenue and its environs, immediately marks out Avalon as being different from the rest of the pack. "I thought people would be pleased that there is something new in town but only the public are. I really love live theatre and live shows and Jerry Springer Ð the Opera can do what Hair did in the seventies. But it can't be done without help and we've been tremendously appreciative of the press and how they've stayed with it. Maybe you're not supposed to say that but we are. And it will be good for everybody if Jerry Springer is still here in two years' time." Avalon certainly does things differently. For starters, there is the fly-posting for which they are legendary Ð "I've got a lot of fines to show for it but I do sort of believe in trying to sell tickets, " says Thoday of the publicity for Springer which cheekily included lining Waterloo Bridge's lamp posts with posters for the show when it was on at the National. Then there is the show's aggressive West End pricing policy, with a hefty top price of £50 and even the upper circle going for £35. "No one likes high prices and we don't either, " Thoday counters. "But it's a really expensive show to do. It's the biggest show that has ever been at the Cambridge and we haven't held back on production values. It costs money to make something really good. I wanted to go into a bigger theatre Ð if we had gone to Drury Lane, I would have had 500 seats at £10. But you can't do it at the Cambridge. Anyway, I've promoted a lot of shows and in the end it isn't ticket prices that stop something being successful. It would be great to have lots more tickets at a lower price but I don't think pricing it at £49 Ð like Mary Poppins is doing to avoid being £50 Ð is the right way to go about it. You have to be honest about it and say it costs a lot of money to do the show." He has got strong opinions and it certainly shows in his suspicion of the West End. "I've not looked into how the West End has worked for a long time. But it does seem that over the last ten years it has become like a bargain bucket basement of theatre shows. That's why it's not doing very well. There is loads of stuff that should be on a second-rate tour, not there. I think it is very hard to try something new but if you're going to do it, you'd better put some money into it and make it good Ð and it will cost money to come and see it, " he concludes, unapologetically. He he has also found a different route in producing new work to the usual one. When he first set up shop in London as an independent producer after graduating from Cambridge University, he had two quick flops. These were Mumbo Jumbo, directed by Nicholas Hytner at the Lyric, Hammersmith Ð "It got really good reviews and sold no tickets" Ð and an Off-Broadway musical, Nite Club Confidential, that he brought to the Playhouse Ð "It got terrible reviews and sold no tickets". He continues: "I always wanted to produce new work but it was very, very hard to get any of the literary agents to take me at all seriously. They wouldn't even return calls. So getting to any material that was any good was very hard and ultimately I ended up with no money and no idea about how to make ends meet. I wasn't personally rich Ð my parents are academics." He tried to take on a musical version of Elmer Gantry, written by Steve Brown, that he had seen at Chichester but the rights to the novel had never been secured and it couldn't be done again. "Steve was quite upset about it all and he was looking for a new agent. I found I'd been so frustrated by agents when I was trying to produce, because they were utterly closed to anyone they'd not heard of, which I thought was ridiculous Ð it takes a lot of effort to get something off the ground and someone who is keen should be encouraged, not discouraged. So I decided to become a manager of talent that could originate material, as it seemed the only way to get close to new material. And Steve was my first client." Brown, who went on to win an Evening Standard Drama Award for Best Musical for his show Spend Spend Spend, is now writing a musical version of It's a Wonderful Life for Thoday, that Avalon has the rights for, and he hopes to open in the West End by the end of next year. Brown led them to their second client, a comedy double act called Miles and Millner, the Miles half of which turns out to be Richard Thomas, the composer of Jerry Springer. "I feel very proud that both my first and second clients have won Standard Awards for Best Musical. It took them 13 and 15 years but they got there." Thoday has been remarkably loyal to other talent too. He has known choreographer Jenny Arnold, for example, since she staged the dances for his very first theatre productions when he was still a student. She did the same job with Springer. And it reveals another strand to Thoday's promotion Ð going for the long-term strategy. "The talent market there tends to go with the flow of what is going around. We've never really done that. Rightly or wrongly, we look for someone we think is good, not whether or not we can sell him or her. If somebody is good, you will either get him or her to a point where they can express their talent or their time will come." Avalon today has a UK client list of 41 people, including some of comedy's brightest stars, such as David Baddiel, Frank Skinner, Harry Hill, Al Murray, Dave Gorman and Simon Munnery Ð "he's one of most original writers working in the world at moment. Finding out where he gets his inspiration from is impossible and in my book that's genius." He says: "There's a mythical thing when you manage an artist where people assume that the phone rings off the hook with offers for things they want to do. The phone rings but with things they don't want to do. You don't get people and new things to where you want to go without a lot of work." He demonstrates it with the arduous road that Jerry Springer took, from a tiny studio showing at Battersea to Edinburgh and now to the West End and on to Broadway, where it is scheduled for spring 2005. "At every stage it's been seen, people have said to keep it like that. But I felt very strongly that it was quite a big show and that it should be done how it's now been done." So his grand scheme was to keep nudging it in that direction? "I've always believed when you charter a course for new things that it's important to have a plan and follow it. It can sometimes be not quite the right plan but having something you work towards is tremendously important in showbusiness. Along the way a thousand people will tell you a thousand things about the thousands of things you're doing wrong or right. But actually you have to keep your focus, which is to keep improving the show." And now, to keep selling it. "Our takings are going up week on week and in the end I'm happier if it does that than a quick up, quick down. I'd rather be slow up, slow down." Thoday, like his show, is in it for the long haul. ?Mark Shenton is theatre critic for the Sunday Express and BBC London Jon Thoday A Summary 1961: Born and raised in Cambridge. 1980-3: Reads natural sciences at Cambridge University, where he founds Cambridge Independent Theatre, using the talent from both the university and town. 1984: Cambridge Independent Theatre's production of Anything Goes comes to the Bloomsbury Theatre in London. 1985: Cambridge Independent Theatre's production of Grease tours Europe. 1986: Founds Avalon Productions Ltd, with the aim of producing new work in London. 1987: First London show Mumbo Jumbo produced at Lyric, Hammersmith. 1988: Late Nite Confidential produced at the Playhouse. After it flops, forms management company, Avalon Promotions Ltd. 1993: Produces Newman and Baddiel at Wembley Arena to an audience of 12,000. Frank Skinner next performs to an audience of 6,500 at Battersea Power Station. 2000/1: Produces Al Murray's Pub Landlord in a season at the Playhouse Theatre two years running, both nominated for an Olivier Award for Best Entertainment. Produces Baddiel and Skinner at the Shaftesbury Theatre. 2002: Opens Los Angeles office. 2003: Co-produces Jerry Springer Ð the Opera at the National Theatre and then transfers it to the West End's Cambridge Theatre. 2005: Jerry Springer scheduled for Broadway transfer.